Coda - Rupert Loydell: Guest posts and interview

I recently posted a series of guest posts by and an interview with Rupert Loydell which has added to the material about Jesus Rock, CCM and spirituality in rock music published here previously. The first post in this series was a listing of previous posts on these themes - click here. The second post was an interview with musician Nick Battle, click here. The third post was the interview with Rupert Loydell - click here. The fourth post was a new interview by Rupert with Nick Battle - click here. While the final post in the series was an interview by Rupert with Steve Scott - click here. 

Steve Scott is a British mixed-media artist, writer, lecturer, and performer. Upon completing art school in the mid-1970s, Steve moved to the United States at the request of a small record label and began recording songs. He now has ten albums of original work released on several small independent labels. The work ranges from rock music to more experimental poetry and spoken word, performed over electronic loop based compositions. 

I worked with Steve, through commission4mission, to organize some of the different `Run with the Fire’ art exhibitions and events held in and around London, during the Olympic summer of 2012. You can learn more about `Run With The Fire’ by clicking here, here, and here. My own dialogues with Steve can be read here, here, here, here, and here.

One of main reasons for the interview with Steve was a Kickstarter project for two unrealeased albums. Charles Normal, who oversees Solid Rock Records, explained the background to the project as follows:

'In 1977 British Poet / Songwriter Steve Scott signed a recording contract with Solid Rock Records and began recording two albums for the company. He assembled a top-notch band of well-known musicians and performers in the Christian music scene: Larry Norman, Randy Stonehill, Mark Heard, Tom Howard, Alex McDougall (Daniel Amos), and Jon "Wonderfingers" Linn. Both albums (Moving Pictures and Closeups) were completed, but before they could be mixed, mastered, and released, Solid Rock's distribution company Word Records got cold feet because of Scott's lyrics which touched sporadically on “crises of faith” and other legitimate questions that the faithful can occasionally have. There were moments of soul-searching buried in the albums' tracks, questions that the stalwart distribution company didn't want addressed.

The albums never got released so they sat in the Solid Rock archives for 47 years until they began to be reconsidered as the tour de force they were all along.'

The Kickstarter project was a success so the CDs will be pressed in January, and the vinyl records will be available from March. This is great news as, as Alan Thornbury has written, 'The eclecticism evidenced (reggae, delta blues, punk, ballad), the raw power of the studio band, and Scott's cognitively complex refections on the life of a follower of Jesus make the appearance of this record at long last something of a tiny miracle.' Thornbury also notes that: 'There were no easy certainties here, unlike most CCM at the time. Faith sits uncomfortably with doubt on several tracks.'

The difficult history of these two albums and the difficulties that Steve Scott faced in trying to get his music released is indicative of the twists and turns experienced by many creative musicians of faith whose music is too Christian for mainstream labels and insufficiently evangelistic or praise-based for the CCM labels. The following are stories of others who have faced similar challenges in different ways:

Jeremy Enigk: Enigk is described by Wikipedia as: 'an American singer-songwriter, vocalist and guitarist/multi-instrumentalist. He is known as a solo artist, a film score composer, and as the lead vocalist, rhythm guitarist and keyboardist of the Seattle-based bands Sunny Day Real Estate and The Fire Theft.' Natalie Jacobs notes that: 'Once known as the anguished voice of emo pioneers Sunny Day Real Estate, Jeremy Enigk has done a lot of growing up in public. At 21 years of age, Enigk sacrificed Sunny Day—a band on the verge of a commercial breakthrough—in favor of Christianity, announcing his religious convictions in a 1994 e-mail to friends. Enigk later rejoined his bandmates in various configurations (both in the Fire Theft and a reunited Sunny Day ...), and he issued an ornate, orchestral-pop solo album, Return Of The Frog Queen, in 1996.' The Masquerade argues that the latter album 'was an indisputable innovation in the world of ‘90s indie rock, rewriting a litany of unwritten rules about sound, subject matter, and solo identity for lead singers of successful bands.' Enigk has said of his approach: 'You’ve got to speak it from the heart, if you truly have this relationship or feeling, you know—tell the truth. A lot of the lyrics are always just the same praising. There’s nothing wrong with praising, but I have no problem wrestling with God. Or wrestling with the idea of God. I think it’s good to doubt. I think it’s good to look at the other side of that, as opposed to doing the formula, just doing it to make yourself look like you love God. And that’s really only to impress your fellow Christians, you know?'

Josh Caterer: Caterer is described by Chicago Music Wiki as: 'The creative mastermind behind the [Smoking] Popes, Josh composed the majority of their repertoire of distinctive, pop-influenced punk-rock songs, many of which have an intensely melancholy air underneath their driving beat. Lyrics of his early songs evoke feelings of fear, failure, intense despair, purposelessness, and romantic love as a redeeming agent. His later songs are marked by a more positive outlook, and many center upon the uplifting nature of religious faith and upon the importance of examining one's spiritual path.' Caterer broke up 'the Smoking Popes, on the cusp of national stardom and chucked his rock records to find what he wanted in a newfound Christian faith.' Seven years later — 'having searched and researched his soul, started a separate Christian band called Duvall and become a father of two' — he revived the Popes, saying: 'At the time, the best way to respond to my decision to follow Christ was to quit the band. I did it with a sense of permanence. But my understanding of the faith has grown to the point where I can see how to encompass the Popes. On the one hand, I can do it without compromising my faith; on the other, I can do it without using the Popes as a platform for expressing my faith.' He has been a worship leader at several churches and his solo albums include The Light of Christ (2012) and One Step Closer to Home (2014). A recent song, “Allegiance”, was written 'really quickly, two days after the election' as Caterer explains,'I was filled with overwhelming emotions: rage and disgust, and I just had to get it out'. 'I feel like probably my own personal motivation for feeling like I need to say that has to do with the fact that people know I’m a Christian, so a lot of folks probably assume that I’m also a Republican and that I probably voted for Trump. The thought makes me sick that there would be anybody out there mistakenly assuming that I voted for this monstrosity.' As a means of providing his own personal light in the darkness, Caterer did what he knows best. 'I know that it’s possible to feel hopeless and like there’s nothing I can do, but I know there is one thing I can do: I can write a song.'

Brian Fallon: Joseph Hudak writes that: 'Fallon has carved out a career by trying to make sense of the world. With Gaslight Anthem, he sang about the mysteries of life (and cars and girls) with more than a few religious allusions tossed in. In “The ’59 Sound,” one of the band’s signatures, Fallon nods to the “Everlasting Arms” of Deuteronomy; in “I Believe Jesus Brought Us Together,” with his group the Horrible Crowes, he calls out Jesus by name; and in “Vincent,” off ... solo LP Local Honey, he writes of baptisms and the forgiveness of sin. In the hymns of Night Divine, Fallon’s Christian roots are even more overt. His version of the late-1800s hymn “Leaning on the Everlasting Arms” is hushed and reverent, while his take on “Virgin Mary Had One Son” blends elements of both Odetta’s performance and Joan Baez’s. On “O Holy Night,” a notoriously difficult song to perform, he goes all in with strained notes and a cracking voice. Intentional or not, it’s a perfect representation of human frailty and mortal limitations.' Fallon has said: 'I’m an old-school Jesus/God, very traditional guy because I was brought up Christian. But I don’t agree with a lot of Christian people and I don’t think they agree with me.'

Gene Eugene: The Christian Underground Encyclopedia entry for Eugene begins: 'Gene “Eugene” Andrusco (April 6, 1961–March 20, 2000) was a Canadian born actor, record producer, engineer, composer and musician. Andrusco was best known as the leader of the funk/rock band Adam Again, a member of The Swirling Eddies (credited as Prickly Disco) and as a founding member of the roots music super-group Lost Dogs.' As 'the owner of The Green Room recording studios in Huntington Beach, California. Gene recorded and produced hundreds of albums at The Green Room including albums by the Aunt Bettys, The Choir, Daniel Amos, Michael Knott, The Waiting, Crystal Lewis, Plankeye, Starflyer 59, and others. In 1987, Eugene, Ojo Taylor and another investor formed Brainstorm Artists International (B.A.I.), which became an important label in the development of the West Coast alternative music scene.' Michael Farmer suggests that: 'Larry Norman, let’s say, invented Christian rock and was largely responsible for the way it sounded in the 1970s. Terry Taylor (of Daniel Amos and the Swirling Eddies) turned it into a genuine art form and had a hand in most of the important Christian alternative rock records of the 1980s. The man more responsible than any other for the sound of 1990s Christian alternative rock, on the other hand, is Gene Eugene.' Farmer writes that Adam Again 'were as soulful and funky as Christian rock has ever been legally allowed to be' and that 'Eugene’s powerful, sorrowful voice [was] at the center.' Eugene stated that Adam Again's music was 'very spiritual and really honest' unlike the 'sloganism and pandering' 'that’s what sells': 'Music is first for this band. The music brings the lyrics out. Images come to me as I hear the music. I’m in a writing thing this year and last where I kind of write without thinking. It’s sort of a “stream” thing. It’s really the most spiritual way for me to write. Sometimes I’ll just write then later on I’ll figure out what it means. Sometimes I won’t ever figure out what it means.'

My co-authored book ‘The Secret Chord’ is an impassioned study of the role of music in cultural life written through the prism of Christian belief. Order a copy from here.

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Steve Scott - Not A Pretty Picture.

Rupert Loydell: Guest posts and interview (5)

This series of guest posts by and an interview with Rupert Loydell adds to the material about Jesus Rock, CCM and spirituality in rock music which has been published here previously. See the first post in this series for a listing of previous posts on these themes - click here - for the second post, which is an interview with musician Nick Battle, click here, the third post is an interview with Rupert Loydell - click here. The fourth post in the series was a new interview by Rupert with Nick Battle - click here.

This final post in the series is an interview by Rupert with Steve Scott. I worked with Steve, through commission4mission, to organize some of the different `Run with the Fire’ art exhibitions and events held in and around London, during the Olympic summer of 2012. You can learn more about `Run With The Fire’ by clicking here, here, and here. My own dialogues with Steve can be read here, here, here, here, and here.

Steve Scott is a British mixed-media artist, writer, lecturer, and performer. Upon completing art school in the mid-1970s, Steve moved to the United States at the request of a small record label and began recording songs. He now has ten albums of original work released on several small independent labels. The work ranges from rock music to more experimental poetry and spoken word, performed over electronic loop based compositions.

Dynamic conversations in a dynamic field: an interview with Steve Scott

Solid Rock records – now being managed by Charles Normal, brother of Jesus Rock pioneer Larry Norman – recently announced a Kickstarter campaign to issue two unreleased 'lost' albums from Steve Scott. Over the years Moving Pictures and Close Ups have become almost mythical in a few CCM collectors' minds and the move has generated some ripples of surprise and delight. I've known Steve Scott since the 1980s, when Steve Fairnie introduced him to me in a muddy field at Greenbelt and am as delighted as anyone to finally hear these albums. It also provided an excuse for this interview.

Rupert Loydell: Hi Steve. I'm hoping we can use this planned release of two early albums of yours as a springboard for an interview that goes wide and long about your music, writing and the spiritual in music. I hope that's ok?

Steve Scott: Yes, thanks….. I’ll try and be informative.

RL: OK, so Moving Pictures was the initial album you were working on at the time. Before we dive into these new albums can I take you back in time to the 70s and 80s and suggest we discuss what was going on back then?

My own short and condensed version of things is that Jesus Music happens in the States as part of a religious awakening associated with the hippies, and musicians like Larry Norman and Liberation Suite come over to the UK (where there were already a (very) few Christian rock bands such as Out of Darkness touring amongst church coffee shop folksters) and help Jesus Music happen over here.

I'd probably point to Parchment and Malcolm & Alwyn as two of the most successful UK acts, whose record deals included secular distribution for a while, but they were enough spark a few UK Christian record labels such as Key Records to start up, and for the USA labels to start UK branches and distribution. They were soon full of would-be rockers and singer-songwriters keen to evangelise and build a church concert circuit up, but the UK simply wasn't big enough or religious enough to do so. It also got somewhat entangled with censorious right wing politics courtesy of Mary Whitehouse and co. in the guise of the Festival of Light. But Christian rock also managed to pretty much miss out on punk and post-punk, although there were a few bands such as Moral Support, Giantkiller and the Bill Mason Band who made some New Wave music. That early moment of musical success and optimistic possibility also catalysed projects such as the Greenbelt Arts Festival to start up.

So CCM in the UK drifted into worship music, helped by the likes of Graham Kendrick and the Charismatic branch of the church. Last time I was in a Christian bookstore – several years ago; I don't even know if they exist now – the music racks were full of choirs and clean-faced singers offering variations of uplifting songs that had nothing to do with popular music. CCM never could cope with the likes of Randy Matthews and his soulful rebellion early on, Mark Heard's thoughtfulness, or Steve Taylor later subverting from within, questioning and caricaturing certain assumptions and ideas.

However, back in the day, in part thanks to the likes of After the Fire and Fish Co./Writz/Famous Names, there were Christians who decided to simply be musicians, just as some chose to become plumbers or shopkeepers. In retrospect I think these bands were more important and adventurous than we gave them credit for at the time, and along with societal changes, for the last few decades music of all genres has been open to discussions of spirituality, faith & doubt, religion and belief (just don't mention Christianity or church!), courtesy of U2, Van Morrison, Mike Scott and the Waterboys, Bob Dylan and loads of rappers, rockers, singers and Uncle Tom Cobley and all... It also allowed for experimental bands such as the Revolutionary Army of the Infant Jesus to get signed, and for independent record labels such as Sticky Music to exist.

So, back in the 70s, Steve Scott is studying film in London but somehow ends up going to the States to make a record with Larry Norman. What was going on? How did you fit into the UK scene and then the US one?

SS: Well your overall summary of the 60s/70s situation might be correct... I don’t know. I was very much on the fringes of all that and not paying a huge amount of attention to it. I was at art school and trying to absorb all these modern/postmodern ideas and figure out where I, as a young Christian, could plug in… A couple in my (first) Church had come back from a weekend retreat or seminar or something dropping names like Francis Schaeffer and Hans Rookmaaker – this was late 60s I think – so I became aware that there was some emerging response to the culture of the day over and above simple `avoidance’. I’d heard a few Christian `beat’ groups that predated US influenced Jesus Rock music, although they weren't for me… But I was at a 1970 Youth For Christ (I think… or was it IVF?) weekend in Torquay where I met Andy Piercey and Iain Smail, who later became Andy and Ishmael, as well as Steve Fairnie and his pal Steve Rowles down from Bristol, who were later Fish Co, Writz, Technos and much else. The music for the weekend was a singing Trio called Soul Truth (Bev Sage et al) and one of the speakers was a pre Arts Centre Group Nigel Goodwin.

I got to the very early ACG meetings in Kensington although even then I hoped and wanted to stretch around or beyond the Schaeffer/Rookmaaker angle on arts and culture, valuable though it was in starting the conversation. I crossed paths with Steve Turner at a poetry workshop in Earls Court, then encountered him reading at a bigger Christian event in London; and through the ACG crossed paths with all sorts such as poet/broadcaster Stewart Henderson and filmmaker Norman Stone. The music? Some of it yes. If Nutshell came and played our local church’s coffeeshop I’d hear that. I was at the RAH for Graham Kendrick’s singer songwriter concert and I encountered a bit more at Greenbelt. When I was at art school in Croydon I lived for a while quite close to a `Jesus People’ type commune called `The Jesus Family’, led by Jim and Susan Palosaari. They had rock bands like Sheep as part of their community and were somewhat involved with that first Greenbelt Festival. They were also involved in a mixed media musical called Lonesome Stone that I saw in North London.

By then I was pals with Randy Stonehill and Larry, thanks to an initial introduction to Randy by Steve Turner. I’d initially seen Randy play a concert at a church close to where I was at college and was impressed. So, ACG, Greenbelt, Lonesome Stone and formative friendships and auspicious introductions, as well as 60s/70s art school, rather than simply doing poetry readings (something I’d done since 1968 on). It’s the songs that interested Larry, with megathanks to Randy for sharing a cassette of them with his friend. It was out of all this that the move to record in USA came about, although I still didn't know what kind of artist I wanted to be! Poet? Filmmaker? It was all a bit of a mess.

Sorry for the tangled narrative. I'm afraid it does not get any better!

RL: So you're in Los Angeles with the Solid Rock crew of musicians working on Moving Pictures. Were you happy with the overall sound and musical direction? What was Larry like to work with in the studio?

SS: Great experience. Up 'til then it was me and a nylon string guitar, now it was a full-on rock band of some of the best arrangers and players I’d ever heard. In London I’d seen Larry working on Larry tracks, some of which I think were for Only Visiting This Planet, which was amazing in itself. And now to be in a Los Angeles studio having him produce and arrange my music? Stellar! And have the likes of Mark Heard and Tom Howard play on it? Brilliant! Would all this turn into something that would be self sustaining while letting me go to galleries, film screenings and poetry readings? That was the big idea.

RL: At some point your album release didn't happen. Word Records, who Solid Rock had a distribution deal with, thought your album was too rebellious and 'different', and there were record company problems – personal, financial and administrative – that eventually led to the end of Solid Rock and you walking away and moving north to the Bay Area (San Francisco) and Sacramento.

SS: Well, I’ve no real idea what Word thought. `Rebellious’ seems unlikely. They might have heard a bit and thought `nah/pass’ for any number of reasons, from boredom on. As you say, things began to get complex and unravel on a number of different levels and eventually I walked away from the project and ended up working with an arts friendly church in Northern California, Warehouse Christian Ministries (Louis and Mary Neeley). Whole other story, as they say, not least because a: One of the results of their arts friendly focus was Exit Records, 77s, Vector, Charlie Peacock and moi (plus luminous others) and b: moving to Northern California put me close to Berkeley and the beginnings of a whole other bunch of significant friendships with David and Susan Fetcho, Sharon Gallagher, Right On/Radix magazine etc… Radix was where I’d start to publish essays on the arts, and I’d first encountered some back issues of Right On at my second Greenbelt in 1975.

RL: When I interviewed Greg Thornbury, the biographer of Larry Norman, for Punk & Post-Punk journal, he suggested that there were several issues with regard to Solid Rock:

• The talent bench in Christian music was fairly short.
• The best artists (i.e. Randy Stonehill, Daniel Amos, Mark Heard, Steve Scott) wanted to get secular record contracts, but just weren’t successful in doing so. And that’s what they thought Larry could do for them.
• When Larry’s expectations and standards were too high, or when Larry couldn’t manage to get their records to market in a timely fashion, they went to other Christian record labels who had lower artistic requirements and could get records out more expeditiously. I totally get that. It was a compromise.
• Most of those artists signed with Solid Rock to get the advantage of having the Street Level booking agency thrown in, because as we all know, most artists make the real money on the road performing and selling merchandise. When Street Level split off from Solid Rock – the appeal of Solid Rock lessened.

Is that how you felt or now feel? Or was there something else going on?

SS: I never pursued a deal in the Christian marketplace, and not really in the secular one either. The closest I came to 'secular’ was with Exit Records and I never really thought in terms of pursuing a `secular’ rock star career. Good grief.

RL: So you pretty quickly released an album, Love in the Western World, on Exit Records, which I understand was set up by musicians based at the Warehouse Church. Is that right? The 77s and Charlie Peacock were there, yes? Jimmy Abegg?

SS: The arts thing at Warehouse blossomed into a multimedia/theater/poetry/painting organisation called Sangre Productions. They ended up recording a sampler album of many of the musicians now involved, including me, and they used my song `Come Back Soon' as the title track. (This involved negotiations with Larry.) The Sangre thing at Warehouse morphed into Exit Records and in 1981 or so I began work with the Scratch band (the 77s) and others on new material.

With Western World I got to record a bunch of songs I'd written really quickly as opposed to the more elaborate Moving Pictures project. All this, along with my position as an associate staff member with the church, provided very interesting ways of connecting with aspects of the art and faith conversations starting to unfold in other churches, at some academic institutions, and in other parts of the world. So I got to travel to places like India, Thailand and Bali where my eyes and ears were opened and my mind blown! All this in turn fed back into the music I was writing, be that songs or poetry and spoken word performance.

RL: Love in the Western World also included the spoken word piece 'This Sad Music' that sowed the seeds for your later albums that combined poetry and the spoken word. You have already mentioned writing poetry, and I know you, Dave Fetcho and Clif Ross had a poetry pamphlet out at one point and were into William Everson (née Brother Antonius)'s poems.

SS: Yes, my interest in spoken word was reignited by one of the tracks we included on Western World album and also the poetry readings and writing workshops I was taking part in both at the church and also with my friends in Berkeley. Yes to William Everson, and a whole bunch of others. In SF I got to see Kenneth Rexroth, Robert Duncan and Tomas Tranströmer give readings. I also spent a lot of time at City Lights Bookstore.

RL: So you have released several albums that involve field recordings, tape loops and ambient music with spoken word recordings, combining all sorts of interests, trips and ideas. Tell me about all that. I know you played Larry the original version of Gavin Bryars' 'Jesus Blood Never Failed Me Yet' to Larry! Was Bryars a big influence? (And what did Larry think of the music?)

SS: Yes, as above. I had an interest in arts, missions, arts cultural pluralism and what some were describing as an overall shift to the culturally pluralistic, multitraditioned `majority world church’. This provided a larger framework for me to reflect on my/our own artistic/cultural narratives, including the modern/postmodern ones of the First World.

Traveling, meeting artists, making field recordings and integrating them into my own performances, my own reading on cultural pluralism and multiple modernities, and observing some of these things beginning to impact some Christian thinking and practice in an increasingly connected world, all influenced me, along with Gavin Bryars! I don't know what Larry thought about Bryars though.

RL: You seem to have pretty much settled into being a cult artist, involved in international dialogue and discussions about the arts' place in society and faith. I know you have written a couple of books about this, and you have also talked over the years about the sustained use of an idea or metaphor. Can you, briefly, summaries your ideas about all this? Have we moved on at all from Calvin Seerveld's and Hans Rookmaker's ideas?

SS: Well, as I suggested above, the conversation was changing, even back in the Postmodern seventies although I was not sure that `we’ were keeping up… My practice since that time along with all the travel suggests to me that there are multiple art histories (not just the Western one), as well as dynamically changing models of how to exhibit art. Everything from the internet to the international bienniale has impacted the hows and wheres of art display, and there are many changes in the global economy that have impact on social and cultural development. Then there are retrievals from and reframing exercises of `our’ art history that puts that art in a brand new light. The Pre-Raphaelites, for example…

So it’s a dynamic conversation in a dynamic field. Are we up for that conversation? I think a writer and artist like Makoto Fujimura certainly is.

RL: Let's go back to these Solid Rock albums! Why are they being released now? Is it demand from fans, a tidying up exercise or simply Charles Normal's enthusiasm for the project? I know you have previously sidestepped questions about Christian versus secular record labels and talked about simply being happy to have your music released and your books published, but is there an element of Jesus Music archaeology going on here? Nostalgia, even?

SS: I hope there’s a sufficient demand. I keep hearing about this recording project from those that want to know `when?’ I like the songs and think Larry did a great job of capturing and amplifying their potential, and there are great people playing on the tracks. Nostalgia? Certainly, but not just looking back, looking forward to hearing these songs today.

RL: And what's actually been done to or with the original recordings? I know Charles has added some guitar and remixed it – anything else?

SS: The original analogue tracks were retrieved, separated and digitized. The digital tracks were mixed, polished, shined up… Charles adding some gloss and maybe a bit of layered support in one or two instances.

RL: Are we going to see a live rock tour on the back of this?

SS: Not by me!!

RL: And if not, what are your future plans at the moment?

SS: More writing in different forms. I’m pulling together my selected and new poems for a small US publisher. More poetry recordings. Always. Also, I’ve recorded and mixed/mastered an EPs worth of new songs in a local studio for an eventual album project.

Other books? It would be great to pull the more recent published arts essays (last 20 years) and do another volume supplemental to the first two books on the arts and multiculturalism (Crying for a Vision and Like a House on Fire). We’ll see…

RL: Great! Thanks for taking the time to do this Steve and for all your ideas, friendship and discussions over the last 40+ years!

SS: Thank you for a chance to air out my head! Hopefully it untangles into something usable.

•

Steve Scott can be contacted via the cryingforavision website

His most recent albums (on Harding Street Assembly Lab) are Cross My Heat and The Way of the Sevenfold Secret.

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Steve Scott - This Sad Music.